Ep. 53 | Anti-Semitism or Accountability? Why Zionism Isn’t Above Criticism
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Antisemitism is disgusting. We can all agree on that for sure. It's one of the ugliest most dangerous forms of hate. But what happens when it gets weaponized, when it's used actually silence, legit questions and avoid accountability. That's what we're diving into today. Legends. So strap on.
Hey legends.
Welcome back to another episode. I really want to dive straight into this one today. We're going to be talking about antisemitism or is it accountability and why? Zionism? Isn't above criticism. I know this is a contentious topic. We still have a war, bloody genocide going on with Israel and Palestine at the moment.
I know it's contentious. But I really want you to stick with me with this episode all the way to the end. I'm going to raise some very thought provoking. Thoughts. Is that for thought, some thought provoking thoughts, some thought provoking questions and point of view that comes from my own research, but also. Because I've been [00:01:00] labeled anti-Semite that has been thrown at me a couple of times on social media and it made me dig deeper.
It honestly made me go underneath it all. And to start to. Analyze myself analyze why. And it led me to Zionism. It led me full-blown to Zionism. And this is what we're going to be discussing today because. I think we can all agree. No, I shouldn't think I know antisemitism is horrifying, right? This is not up for debate in this episode.
That is not what we're debating. It is fueled centuries of violence and oppression against Jewish people. Right. No, one's going to be denying that anyone listening to this episode is not going to be denying that. Okay. Jewish people have been persecuted in history in times, gone by, and I'm, I'm not here to debate that I'm not here to downplay it.
That is not what this episode is about. I really want to set that scene. But this is where things do get a bit messy because the term antisemitism is being thrown around like goddamn confetti. It's come [00:02:00] my way. And I'm only a small player in the world of podcasting. Let's be real. Yes, this podcast is growing.
Thank you, legends. Thank you, motherfuckers. These podcast is growing all the time and I'm so grateful and it's not just in Australia. It's worldwide. I'm so grateful to every single listener. Thank you so much for tuning in every week. But. In the realm of podcasting, I'm still a small player and I've already been called an anti-Semite numerous times.
So this is why I think this is such an important topic. Having that term thrown around like goddamn confetti is actually reducing the impact of the word. And that's why I also think this episode in this topic is so fricking important. It's now actually slapped on anyone who questions, certain actions, certain policies. Or even ideologies. Even when those questions, this is the thing, even when they have absolutely nothing to do with hate, which was the way in my instance, When I was first called an anti-Semite, it blew my goddamn mind.
It blew my [00:03:00] mind. Cause I was like, What. Like. I know. For, full fact that I have zero hatred in my heart for any Jewish individual, any like, I just, I don't hold hatred in my heart towards anybody.
So it really made me think, why am I being called an anti-Semite? Let's go underneath it.
So, yeah, I've been labeled an anti-Semite, this wasn't for spewing hatred on Jewish individuals. This was for me questioning the behavior of a particular family who just so happened to be Jewish.
It was not about them being Jewish. In fact, at the time, I didn't even know they were Jewish. It was about their behaviors. It was about their power and their influence and their level of potential corruption that I think that they held or their level of power getting to. Too big. That their influence was no longer positive if ever positive.
Right. And that was a whole nother episode. And we don't have to dive into it. Now, the thing is, I didn't even know that there were Jewish, not that that would have changed the matter, not that would, that that would have changed what I said, my [00:04:00] issue wasn't with them being Jewish. My issue today isn't with them being Jewish, it's not to do with their identity.
It was about their actions. But the second I spoke up, bam, it was like the anti-Semitism label just was thrown on me And suddenly the chance for root conversation was dead, right? It just instantly shuts down conversations, not with me. Not with me. Let me make that clear.
It will not shut me down. Even if after this episode, it still gets thrown my way. It. We'll not shut down the conversations that I will have around this topic, but it does a lot online. So I want to make it clear. This is not about minimizing antisemitism. It's about in fact it's the opposite. It's about asking why the hell was it being misused to shut down critical conversations, conversations that actually need to go down down happen?
Because what's happening is it's watering down the potency of that term. Now. Because when it's thrown around on everybody who raises a single question [00:05:00] about, for instance, Zionism, You're instantly called and anti-Semite, if your questions Zionism and we're going to get into what that even is, I'll dive into it all.
But. When that term anti-Semite is thrown around, like goddamn confetti. It is watering down the potency of that word. So when someone is actually an anti-Semite, when someone actually is spewing absolute hatred and atrocities on Jewish people, The term anti-Semite now doesn't hold the same amount of power, the same amount of potency, because everyone gets called an anti-Semite today.
So this is a very important topic. I want to talk about anti-Semitism versus accountability.
One thing I want to make very clear past oppression. Doesn't give anyone immunity from accountability. I know. As I always say my episode, somebody is not going to like that. I understand that. Again, we, we are not debating history. We are not debating the atrocities that have been placed onto Jewish [00:06:00] individuals.
The absolute horrific things that have happened to Jewish individuals. That is not what this episode is about. We are not debating that. History has been horrific to Jewish individuals. But past oppression. Doesn't now mean that any Jewish individual on the planet has immunity from accountability. The same way that any other individual or group of people that have gone through atrocities in history now means that forever generation after generation, after generation, they don't have to hold any accountability for their behaviors. For their actions towards other individuals in this, in this world. But that's ridiculous.
And this is the point that I'm going to make about Zionism. Yes, atrocities have happened in the past to Jewish individuals, to Jewish people as a people. But that does not mean that nobody tied to groups like Zionism or even a Jewish [00:07:00] community can ever be held accountable for their actions today. Because what tends to happen is then oppression is misused as a shield.
History makes. People hypervigilant. It makes us as a society hypervigilant. And I understand that rightfully so right. But what happens is that vigilance can then be twisted. Because the second that you start to question ideologies or policies. Policies is a big one.
You're suddenly branded as an anti-Semite. Even if your critique. I had absolutely nothing to do with hatred, had nothing to do with putting down individuals that are Jewish. This doesn't actually protect Jewish people. I want to make that clear. It protects power and it actually waters down that term that I said, like, anti-Semitism has been watered down already. Which actually makes it harder to call out real hate when it does show up in conversations, when it does show up online.
Being Jewish does [00:08:00] not give you a free pass from criticism, just like any other oppressed group. Does not. Mean that they now don't get hold to account for their behaviors and their decisions and their actions. They're still has to be accountability even. Despite history.
Yes honor history. I want to make that clear.
We can honor history. We can honor things that have happened in the past, but don't let that now mean that it is weaponized.
Because if this misuse continues, it actually shuts down our ability to question and to challenge systems of power to create a fairer world. This is something that you're seeing.
It's like instantly any critique of power systems and structures is shut down. Under the guise of protecting Jewish people. it's not justice. It's actually manipulation. And again, stick with me right to the end, and this will make sense. And yes, history demands that we stay vigilant against hate.
I fully agree. And back that stay vigilant against hate, especially groups that have been [00:09:00] persecuted in the past stay vigilant, but it doesn't give anyone a free pass to actually avoid accountability in present day.
So let's just talk a little bit about Zionism. And why I have some issues with the hard core, like, I mean, for. Hardcore Zionists. Criticizing Zionism doesn't instantly make you an anti-Semite. Doesn't make you antisemitic. Right. But what actually happens is Zionism is often conflated with Judaism, which makes it seem that way.
This is why this label gets thrown out a lot. Because people are uneducated on the topic and listen, I'm not going to pretend that I'm the most educated person out there on Zionism, on Judaism, on Jewish people as a group. I'm not going to pretend that I'm not. But what I'm finding in the little that I do know. Is that the reason why that term
anti-Semite is being thrown out so much is because people are confusing the [00:10:00] critiques of Zionism with Judaism or with Jewish people.
Right. And that is what is making it seem like it is Jewish hatred when it's not. So let's talk about Judaism versus Zionism. Judaism is a religion. Okay. That is a religion. Zionism is a political ideology. Zionism is about creating and maintaining a Jewish state, but let me make it clear, not all Jewish people are Zionists. Not all Zionists are Jewish.
I could call myself a Zionist if I really wanted to, but when you blur those lines, this is when things can start to get very, very messy. This is how legitimate critiques of Zionism, which I think. There should be legitimate critiques of Zionism. They get shut down as all. You're an anti-Semite instantly because it's conflated with Jewish people as a group.
And it's not, this is where it becomes untouchable. [00:11:00] Some Zionist groups now act like they are completely untouchable. They use history as a shield this is what I'm seeing. Like as if any critique of Zionist policies is automatically an attack of Jewish people when it's not even the same thing. This doesn't protect Jewish people.
It protects power. And this is where I have an issue with it, because I think that any group in power should be under scrutiny should be questioned. Their policies should be questioned. Their decisions and actions and behaviors should be questioned. But what actually happens is when people raise these legit questions about Zionism, about the hardlines Zionists, it gets shut down and people. We'll stop trusting the systems meant to call out real hate. People stop having trust. Because hardcore Zionists have, in my opinion, deliberately created it so that they are untouchable. So that they can infiltrate media so that they can [00:12:00] infiltrate politics. under the guise of yes. They believe very much in the fact that. They are all about creating and maintaining a Jewish state, which sounds amazing. But often what you'll find is it's at all costs. For instance, the cost of. Palestinians. And we'll get more into this in a second. I'm not going to go through the entire war that is happening. The entire genocide that is happening. But not, I want to also make it clear, not all Zionists. Uh, hardcore. I think that there is a hard core group within Zionism. That are bringing a bad label to Zionism. That's just my own personal belief, but what is actually happening is if you raise a single question about Zionism, especially about the hardcore side of Zionism. Instantly get shut down.
I think it's so important that we actually hold political power accountable. Just like we do with every other system. And this [00:13:00] includes Zionism.
It's actually my belief now that the term anti-Semite or antisemitism is being used as a shield to block criticisms of Zionists, ideologies of Zionist power structures.
So for instance, if you critique Israeli policies, maybe it's their settlement expansions, maybe it's the human rights violations. These are things that I've questioned. That's not hate. Okay. That is actually accountability. But the second that you've raised these questions, it's like, boom, you're antisemitism, anti scent.
I can not say this goddamn word. You're an anti-Semite. The label is slapped on you. And the conversation is instantly shut down, purely for critiquing Israeli policies.
Purely for critiquing their settlement expansions or their human rights violations. It's almost seen as like, you are not allowed to question. Anything to do with Israelis policies. Otherwise, you're an anti-Semite. The conversation is instantly shut down.
And let's talk about APAC for a [00:14:00] second.
So this is the American Israel public affairs committee. So say that again, the American. Israel public affairs committee. You question APAC it's. Not hate. Okay. You're questioning the power structure. APAC is one of the most powerful lobbying groups in the us. They actually shape American foreign policy. Right there, there to prioritize Israeli interests.
Okay. So if you criticize APAC, that does not make you an anti-Semite. It actually means that you're just asking questions about a lobbying group that do hold massive global influence. Think about it. But of course even mentioning APAC, even critiquing APAC online gets you branded an anti-Semite instantly. My issue with this is, this is how power becomes. Unchecked and stays unchecked. It's a very clever, in my opinion, very deliberate way. To [00:15:00] stop. Groups in power from being able to be questioned. Another one is with social media.
I think it's worse on social media. You question Zionist policies on Twitter. Boom. Canceled. It's a deliberate strategy, in my opinion, to actually silence, dissent. And to protect the status quo. This happens within Zionism. Zionism is protected. This is my belief. I believe hardcore Zionism is protected deliberately.
You are not allowed to raise questions about it, or you were seen as a Jew hater. It's ridiculous. It is absolutely ridiculous and it is not protecting Jewish people when you are canceled. Or. Hatred against for questioning Zionism. That does not protect Jewish people. We do simply protecting the power structures. And it's actually [00:16:00] trivializing real hate.
This was my point before it's watering down that, that term of antisemitism. My critiques of Zionism. Aren't about denying Israeli's right to exist. I want to make that goddamn clear. I believe Israel has a right to exist. I feel like I need to say this 10 times, but I'm not going to, but I truly believe they have a right to exist. But I will continue to critique Zionism.
Even though. To some people that means, certainly means that I am saying Israel doesn't have a right to exist and I'm not. It's about holding policies accountable when they actually harm human rights. And let's talk about this for a second.
The Israeli Palestinian conflict. It's contentious. Right is contentious. We all know it calling out settlement expansions. Forced evictions. Or even calling out the treatment of Palestinians. does not make you an anti-Semite.
To me, this is actually about human rights. I [00:17:00] think that you can stand with. Israelis right to exist. What also questioning how it treats other individuals, how it treats other groups like Palestine, for instance. Just like, you can love your own country, but you can still call out its government when it gets it wrong.
Like here in Australia, I think our government can be pretty fucked at the best of times.
Does that mean that I think that Australia doesn't have a right to exist. Does that mean that I hate my country? No, I got done love this country. Yes. I think the government. It's a bit screwed. I still love my country. I still think Australia has a God damn right to exist. I question. Israel's government.
I question. Their prime minister massively. I question hardcore Zionism massively. I have issues with it. But I believe Israel has a right to exist. I don't believe Jewish people are bad. This is where things are getting extreme. You critique one of those things and [00:18:00] instantly you must be a Jew hater. It's ridiculous. When Zionism shifts into hotline. Policies, which is what we're seeing.
Like for instance, As I said, territorial expansion at all costs or. Anyone that is dissenting will be silenced. So this is what has become. They, they seem to believe hardcore Zionist seem to believe that they need to expand their territory at all costs. And if you question it, you were anti-Semitic. This to me is no longer about empowerment.
It's about oppression. And. I will sit here and say any form of oppression should be under scrutiny. I don't care what group. Is involved in that. It should be scrutinized. What is happening in Israel should be scrutinized. What is happening to the Palestinian people should be scrutinized. Hardcore Zionists in positions of power. Should be scrutinized, just like every other group in positions of [00:19:00] power should be. We criticize governments.
We create a size corporations. I'm all about criticizing systems all the time. Questioning them. Why is it then that Zionist policy seemed to be off limits.
Y. What if I go to hot? Criticizing a government does not equally mean that it is an attack on the people. criticizing the Australian government does not mean that you're attacking Australians criticizing the American government does not mean you're you're criticizing American people. But seems to be different when it comes to Israel.
I think that is. Deliberate. I think it is deliberate and I don't think it has to do with Jewish people at large genuinely. Let me make that clear.
I think it is extremely important to hold those in power accountable, because accountability is progress.
We don't have progress without accountability. We lose that accountability when [00:20:00] we cannot critique when we cannot question. When we're instantly going to be labeled An anti-Semite. I want to make it clear. You can love Israel, right? You can absolutely adore Israel while opposing the government's policies. The same with any country. It's not hate it's responsibility, criticizing Zionist, extremism. Isn't antisemitism. This is my whole point. Right. It's the extremism of Zionism that concerns me. It's about standing up for justice and for human rights. And I really want to make it clear. There is a massive difference between attacking somebody's identity and simply criticizing the government. Simply criticizing those in power. There's a big difference. It is important for us to look at policies. It's so important for us to look at power structures. Jewish people have endured absolutely unthinkable oppression.
Right? It's it's undeniable. None of us are going to be denying that. But [00:21:00] I think what has happened is. History Is now being used to deflect accountability today in present day. That is not honoring the goddamn past. That's actually exploiting it. We can acknowledge the oppression, but it doesn't mean avoiding all hard conversations.
Now in present day times. It means having them with integrity. Having them with empathy, Being alert to what has happened in history. But it doesn't mean avoid these conversations because I think that's what's happening across the earth. Everybody is avoiding, discussing, not everybody. Most people are avoiding, discussing what is happening in Israel.
What is happening to the Palestinian people? Because of history with Jews. And I think that that has now become oppression and it's becoming a genocide. And look, I get it. Nobody wants to be labeled as an anti-Semite. Nobody wants that as a label because it is like, it's like a whoa kind of label. It's one that it's. It's still has a [00:22:00] stink to it for sure. But I think if your questions are rooted in integrity, And they're rooted in accountability. It's not hate.
And those labels then don't stick. This is a thing when those labels were thrown my way on a couple of occasions, they didn't stick. They shocked me to my core because I've never been called that my entire life. And there literally was no basis for it within myself. So it was very confusing. At first, I was genuinely confused. But those labels have not stuck because any critique that I have any questioning that I have. Is always rooted in integrity. It is always rooted in accountability. And I think that when these labels are thrown our way, they just completely shut down conversations.
They completely shut down very important discussions that we should be having.
And this is where I'll say our intention speaks so much louder than any accusations that can come our way. So, yes, anti Semitism is a hundred percent real. It is a real thing. There are people out [00:23:00] there who hate Jews. Who absolutely want to hurt Jews. Right. But this is not a free pass for Zionism. To avoid any scrutiny. Because if we're too afraid to actually ask the hard questions, we're not protecting people. If I'm too afraid to raise any questions about Zionism, I'm not protecting Jews. I'm simply protecting positions of power. That's all.
I'm protecting my silence about the concerns that I have with like hardcore Zionism, my concerns, if I silence them and just be quiet about it, because I don't want to be labeled in anti. Semi. I'm not protecting anybody. That's Jewish. I'm simply protecting the systems of power. And this is what I'm seeing.
A lot of people just stop asking questions when they're afraid of being labeled. I'm an issue with that is that is what the systems of power thrive on. The more silent than we are, the more unchecked that power becomes. When everything starts to be [00:24:00] labeled as hatred, Everything these days. Oh, you're a hater. Everything is labeled as hatred. What actually happens is actual discrimination gets buried. It gets buried deep. The fight against real antisemitism loses credibility. It is losing credibility because that word is getting thrown around a lot. People stop, actually taking the accusation seriously. ' cause weaponizing.
That term is diluting its impact. And it's true. I've been called it a couple of times now. I can guarantee that if this term keeps getting through my way, Honestly, it's going to lose it. Sting. It's already lost its credibility in so many ways, because everybody is called an anti-Semite these days.
If they raise a single question. About Israelis government's policies about their prime minister. Or is he a president Or if you raise a question about like hardcore Zionism it's it's, it is completely diluted the label now of anti-Semite.
Miss Using [00:25:00] labels does not protect. When they use correctly. Yes. If someone is legit. Spewing hatred on Jewish people, Absolutely. There is a label that goes with that of, they are an. anti-Semite right. But when that label is continually, just thrown out to everybody. to just silence everybody. It's not protecting. It's not protecting. anybody, but the power structures, silence only benefits systems of power. And I think we have a duty as people with a goddamn heart and soul to not let that happen. Like, what is going on in Israel with Palestinians is goddamn, horrific. It's horrific. And I think that we have a duty to raise questions about what is going on. No matter what label gets thrown our way. I think I've made it clear that if you question the Israeli government, you are not a Jew hater. If you [00:26:00] question hardcore Zionism, you are not a Jew hater. You are questioning power structures. I think it's time that honestly, we begin to reclaim our voice, not just on this topic, but every topic, but this is obviously a big one right now. Stop being afraid as people to ask questions that actually goddamn matter. Like they matter. This is affecting like, Lives. So, so many lives and children like goddammit gets your minutes.
It gets kids as well. Yes, antisemitism is real. Okay. It is a thousand percent real. This is not up for debate in this conversation. We need to call out antisemitism wherever it exists for sure. But weaponizing it to silence people. That is what I have an issue with that is manipulation. It's manipulation.
If we keep conflating criticism with hate what is happening is. we lose the honest conversations. We lose the conversations that lead to growth as humans and as [00:27:00] people. So I actually have a challenge for you. This is not a super long episode for me, because I didn't want to go into. I don't want this to be a lesson on everything and on the history.
And like, I'm just, I come to this with the. Intent that you guys are all educated on what is going on in the. world. Okay. I'm not trying to educate you on that. I just want to give you a challenge. Are you going to let the fear of labels shut you up? Are you, are you going to ask the questions that matter, even if it makes people uncomfortable? That's what this podcast is about.
And it was goddamn time that I discussed this topic. Even if it makes people uncomfortable. I am going to question the Israeli government. I'm going to question Zionism. I have an issue with Zionism. I believe that they have infiltrated systems of power for a reason. And I think that they have actually used the term antisemitism and weaponized it as a way to get away with. A lot of [00:28:00] shit. I think that they are protecting a lot of shit that they don't want to see the light of day.
This is my own personal opinion. I think that they have infiltrated media. I think hardcore Zionists have infiltrated politics. And the minute that you questioned them, you're labeled an anti-Semite and it is deliberate in my opinion. So I'm going to ask you, are you going to raise questions even if it makes people uncomfortable? One way you can do that is share.
This episode, Have the hard conversations. Raise your questions. Give your opinions, even if they are different to mine, push back against the fear that keeps people silent. Growth doesn't happen. If we sit in silence, it never happens when we sit in silence, we know that it happens when we speak up, when my loud and clear. Because right now where we're at in the world, I actually think the most dangerous thing that we can possibly do is stay silent, stay silent on the topics that matter, these dangerous, the most courageous thing that we can actually do is question [00:29:00] power. And continue to question it. Don't let them make you feel like your voice doesn't matter. it. goddamn does. And it's time for us to use it.
So I just want to close off this episode with some questions that I've got on my phone for you. And I just, when I raise these questions, just sit with what actually comes up for you in your heart and soul. And really ponder them as I ask them. What's more dangerous. Asking uncomfortable questions and being labeled unfairly. Or staying silent and letting injustice go unchecked.
So think it through what's more dangerous. Is that asking the questions, the hard, uncomfortable questions and getting labeled unfairly? Like I have. Or is it staying silent and letting That injustice go. unchecked. How can we create a culture where we protect marginalized communities without shutting down the tough conversations that lead to accountability? Because I do think that this is one of those conversations. It may be tough for a lot of people to discuss this, [00:30:00] but it leads to accountability? And we can do that while still protecting marginalized groups.
Right. We can still have that culture of protecting and honoring the past,But it does not mean that now in present day that, that someone in a position of power or politics or whatever it might be should go without questioning. And at what point does questioning. policies, ideologies, or actions become uncomfortable for you and why? Just some questions for you to ponder. I know this is another one of those juicy topics. I'm here to have all of the conversations, whether they're uncomfortable, whether they come with labels, God knows what label will come with.
This one. But whatever it is, I'm here to have those conversations. I think it's important to hold space for all different conversations for all different topics. And yeah, I would encourage you to use your voice in whatever way that means for you in your life on whatever the topic, use your voice, stand in your power and. Take up [00:31:00] motherfucking space because we need more humans in this world who use their voice for good.
And this is my way of doing that with this particular episode. So yeah. Enjoy your week. Legends. Bye.
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