Ep. 25 | Love, Breakups, Shadows & Affairs: Untangling Karmic Ties with Debbie Pask (Copy)
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
25. Debbie Pask
Speaker: [00:00:00] We have the beautiful Debbie Pask with us today.
we're here today to discuss some really juicy stuff about love and karmic ties. And we're going to get into all of it, but first of all, I just want to say welcome to you, Debbie, and thank you so much for being on the podcast here with me today.
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
Speaker: It's an honor, honestly. Debbie, I obviously, if you've listened to episode 17, I met Debbie and James earlier this year when I did their energy medicine course, that was just so incredibly inspiring and really impactful in my life as well. And so that's how I've met Debbie. And I found, I actually found you so fascinating, Debbie, just because of your history of what led you into getting into energy work.
It was so different because You have a history, if I remember correctly, in advertising and a degree in, was it philosophy? Philosophy, yes. Yeah, weird, right? I love it. Yeah. If you, I'm going to let you introduce [00:01:00] yourself actually, because you're going to say it a million times better than I could, because you know yourself better than I do.
Let everyone know, yeah, who you are and what led you into the work that you currently do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I grew up in a really conservative family, no religion at all, nothing, no, no spiritual faith, not even really a big music listening family, kind of pretty straight. And In very early on, I decided I was going to become a high performing functioning CEO of some big business in the corporate world.
And I had, uh, thought, you know, all people into spirituality were hippies and a bit hopeless. And I came to Byron Bay when I was 18 and thought they were all like losers on the beach, just like smoking weed and, typical light judgment. And, um, I had a really big career. I got up to a board role at the age of 26.
I think I was 26 year old female on the board with all these 50 year old men. I think one other woman on the board, 50 plus. And that sounds young now, but back when you're 26, that feels really old.
Speaker 3: And,
Speaker 2: I was a real high achiever. I managing a big team thought I was, going really great at life and had a massive burnout by the [00:02:00] time I was 27.
Had early, well, decent stage of cervical cancer, really washed out, really burnt out. And I thought, I looked around one day and I went, I'm not going to be some washed out person in the advertising world. I mean, I'd studied philosophy, so I was clearly interested in something different.
Speaker 3: And,
Speaker 2: I decided I wasn't going to be that burnt out corporate stress head and sick and washed up.
So I pretty much quit one day and consulted back and started my healing journey and studied everything I could, meditation, energy, healing, just a complete like 180 turn. And then sold my consultancy in early 2003 and then went. No, started it in 2003, sold it and then went full time into this work.
And so I have a complete left brain and a complete right brain. So I can talk P and L's and staff hiring and firing and team management and like KPIs and ridiculous, high level remuneration strategies. And then now I can completely do karmic. It's [00:03:00] past life regression session. So it's pretty wild.
And my clients know that. And so I have, lawyers, CEOs people that are really senior in the corporate world that really like that. I understand their world and my world.
Speaker: Yeah. It's very rare to meet someone that has both like to that level. Yes. Yeah. It is. It
Speaker 2: really is. It's a real bridge between the two worlds and and I'm really glad I'm in this world because I can see the flaws of the other world.
But I really do respect the everyday physical world and which is why this topic today of love and karmic ties is so relevant because so many of my sessions relate to that. Because everywhere in this world has conflict around love. It's just everywhere. It's, it's so rife and so problematic that that's why this, probably this topic is so apt for today.
Speaker: Yeah. I love that we're talking about this because you are right. It literally affects everybody like everybody where humans on planet earth having [00:04:00] relationships, whether that is intimate or family or coworkers, like we have relationship with other human beings. Otherwise, it's a very lonely existence.
We're meant to have. We are
Speaker 2: meant to do it. Yeah. But they're so problematic. Most of the world's conflict is based on relationships. Yeah. Breakup slash issues slash challenges. And I'm talking like, it's not just everyday people that don't know any better. It's every single, it touches every single person at every single level.
Like one of my, one of my clients, she was amazing. She was a high end really head of a game kind of person. Town planner and she she had a ex partner that was so enraged and, and so disgruntled with their breakup that he used to try and break into her house every night while the kids were downstairs and rape her in the upstairs room.
Speaker 3: Like I'm
Speaker 2: talking like, it just goes through every sensor. It throws everyone off their balance because love and intimacy and conflict is so wild within us. So I'm going to be here or the drug [00:05:00] addict up to a high performing, master CEO, you know, interesting, isn't it? It gets everyone.
Speaker: Yeah, it really does.
What, where do you think we get our ideals of what love is from? That's a big question.
Speaker 2: Well, yes, social and cultural program. But my biggest issue is the fake Hollywood movie scene. They are just so responsible. It's giving me shivers talking about it. They're so responsible for setting us up for failure.
Like, for example, what makes me laugh in movies is you see this. Movie playing out and they've just almost been killed or beheaded or shot a hundred thousand times. They're dirty. They're sweaty They're like horrified they're traumatized, but somehow one minute later in a scene they're getting their clothes off and having wild sex.
Yeah No, no, I think your libido would be shut down your fight or flight like well, yeah That sounds silly, but that's one episode of it. And then you think about the, the [00:06:00] paradigm set up between male and female or both genders. It's just, it's unrealistic. It's fake and it's unrealistic. Even the Hollywood family movies where they all have altercations and then they all come back together and there's one big happy family that that is just not true.
Most families I know are very split and it's not the Hollywood family that we're told to believe we should have.
Speaker: Do you think it's deliberate? It's just popping in my head. Do you think it's deliberately set up that way?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do. I do. I think I think there's a lot of things that are designed to entertain us and, and set up false paradigms for us.
And I definitely think Hollywood movies, don't get me wrong. I enjoy them. I watch movies. They're a bit of fun, but I think we James always has this thing about television. It tells lies to your vision and it does a movie can make us laugh, cry be scared. And, and then what it does, we know that those things are coming straight into our field and making us feel something.
And so we end up you know, Taking that as our reality so we're seeing something on television or a movie and it becomes [00:07:00] our reality because it's felt so deeply we're so easily manipulated. And that's why I think there's been this massive rise in crime shows. I think we're all so dark and need to feel this dark gritty stuff that we're just eating up.
So if you notice serial killers, crime shows, they're through the roof and podcasts and yes. True crime podcast. Yeah. We're eating up darkness. We're eating up darkness and then when it comes to love, we're, we're just fed this bullshit.
Speaker 3: Yeah. It's
Speaker 2: complete bullshit. So we're actually not looking for realistic relationships out there.
People are set up to think that they should be one way because that's the program.
Speaker: What do you think? is a realistic relationship? Or what do you think the purpose of relationship is?
Speaker 2: Our relationships are designed to heal our shadow. They are absolutely designed to heal our shadow and more than ever intimate love relationships.
If you think about it, we are so exposed when it comes to that. Like, if you think about an acquaintance, you [00:08:00] might share what 30 percent of yourself with an acquaintance a good friend, 60 to 70, a bestie, maybe 90. We don't actually go to bed with our best friend. Well, some of us do, but I don't. So my best friend might know 90 percent of me, but my lover knows almost everything.
They know you so intimately and so deeply that. Our wounds are going to come out, right? Like we have shadows and I believe that's our karmic evolution with love. I believe we go on this path and we meet catalysts to evolve us and they can be positive and negative experiences but even a really beautiful love affair with someone will bring out your shadow.
Speaker 3: Your
Speaker 2: insecurities will come to the surface and you know you've got a good mate when they hold your shadow. When they go, I get that about you and I can hold it versus I get that and I'm going to smack you around with it.
Speaker 3: So,
Speaker 2: A good mate will hold your shadow, but most of us will go through relationships that like punch us through our shadow and they're a catalyst for our evolution.
And therefore we. [00:09:00] Grow with those people. And our job, which most of us don't get, our job is to learn those shadows, evolve, and go, I'm going to be at a better version of myself next time. So the next mate that I bring in, it's different. Otherwise, if you don't get your shadow and you don't evolve, you'll just repeat the same repeating patterns again and again.
And I've seen that so many times. And they get worse, you know, you start with the feather and the pebble and the rock and the brick, and then finally you get a mack truck through your door and you're like, why? And I'm like, are you serious? Like you've just gone through the same pattern. So they're hard for that reason.
And, but even with a good mate, you're still going to have your shadows punched around a little bit. It's just that, that usually it's respectful and you're aware of it and you're both willing to work on it.
Speaker 3: You're
Speaker 2: honest and mature. You're honest and mature enough to go, that's a wound. Let's work on it.
I'll, as opposed to what I see all the time is my partner's lacking there. Oh, this person looks [00:10:00] great. And then, and you don't want to look at it and then you just do this little spin and you look at someone else and you're like, that's exactly what my partner's missing. Even though they don't have anything else going for them.
That's why affairs happen because they've got the one thing. that the partner might be lacking that you're not willing to be honest and mature and look for and work on.
Speaker: Yes. So well said we were talking just off air and I've mentioned this before on the podcast, because I'm pretty open with, with the legends that listen in that I've had two big relationships in my life, I got married at 22 within church dynamic.
And then that ended when I was about 26, 27, when I came out of the religious setting. And then a couple years later. Got into it was about a year and a half later, got into another relationship that went very fast, very quickly. I had not learned anything about myself in between. I had not done any work on myself.
I had a [00:11:00] concept on personal development. I'd never done any courses. I'd never done just nothing. Like I just, it was like, I almost viewed that first relationship as though like, wow, what the crap went wrong, but not necessarily, where did I go wrong? It was, whoa, like this was something that happened to me as if I wasn't a part of it.
It was a very warped way of looking at the relationship. I didn't learn from it at the time. Yeah. Got into a whole new relationship. And so I hadn't learned lessons. I hadn't grown from it. I hadn't. And what
Speaker 2: was the similarity between the two? Because normally, I know they might be very different in and of themselves, but there's normally a similar repeating pattern that happens again if you don't get it, can you make the link?
Because if you make that link, you'll get that repeating pattern. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, there was a few. I definitely think one was not knowing myself and putting, I idolized my partners. So I, I would always idolize them and I didn't know myself. So I didn't even know what I wanted. I didn't know. I didn't really know anything about [00:12:00] myself.
And, and so I looked. For my self worth in those individuals, I was very insecure, like highly, highly insecure. And it was like my, they were my rock, but not in a healthy way, more in a, like, I need you kind of way. Like, yeah. And so I hadn't done any, any, I just didn't grow in and develop myself and learn from it.
And so I could see, even though the second relationship. Like bought the most beauty to my life. Like really, really did. And we were together for 10 years and we've ended so much more amicably. We're still really good friends and We have a daughter together. So we're, we're, you know, obviously quite amicable.
But it was just interesting that coming out of that second relationship, I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm the common denominator in the two of them. And it hit me like a ton of bricks and it was so uncomfortable. And that led me on a whole path of like, we need to, you
Speaker 2: know, well, there's two things I love about that.
Firstly, it's pushed you onto a path of self discovery and that's [00:13:00] incredible. Like that's a really good maneuver. So the first thing I'd say is thank you for both of them for pushing me on that path. Secondly, I want to call your friends out and your, and your network out here because this is what friends and networks don't do.
They sit around they're like, Oh, he was so terrible or she was so terrible. You got to move on to the next one. Or this is the problem with our culture. And it comes back to that Hollywood version of wanting this, So, you know, it's a really good. It's a really good, uh, polished, beautiful thing. That's just going to land in your lap.
It doesn't tell you you've got to work for it. Cause any of those Hollywood stars be, you know, do you ever see a movie where they've got to do some self work and work for it? No, they just get landed this ridiculous relationship. And so none of your friends that, Hey, Holly, maybe you should do some work on yourself before you date this next person.
Or maybe you're sure that, you know, no one's called you on it. No one's asked you, no one's thought about you. Hey, I've noticed you didn't put yourself first in that first one. So some of our networks and friends are also partly. Not responsible, that's you, but just to call you out on it and say, what do you really want, and where did it go wrong?
And just letting you [00:14:00] blindly get into the next one. And we're designed to do that. And we're designed to bitch and gossip and moan and say, oh, they're a jerk. And you know what? Maybe they were. Maybe they, maybe this first guy you married was a jerk, but as you just said, whatever he was, he was a catalyst for your evolution of some kind, and that's what the universe will throw you, an evolutionary relationship to course correct you.
And when you do meet someone, when your next one comes along, because of the work you've done, you'll be like, Oh, wow, this is a different vibration because I'm different.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. That's so true. And do you think that's why, because I've had conversations with friends that have had their breakups, do you think that's why people say things like, oh, you know, the more, it's almost like the more traumatic the relationship, the spicier and the more passion there is.
Therefore, as soon as they meet someone that they're probably really compatible with and could be a beautiful relationship, they find them boring.
Speaker 2: Oh, that's such a good thing to bring up. I have a big theory on that. [00:15:00] There's two ways that you, I think you have love with someone. There's that karmic, beautiful soul connected kind of like, Oh my God, there's a draw there that's usually a past life.
I, I, it's very unlikely not to be. There's this beautiful draw and it's unbalanced karma and it's waiting to be dealt with. The second part, yeah, and, and so that's not necessarily bad and I'll tell you the difference because I've, I've given this so much thought with all the relationships I've done. like coach people with.
So the first one is that, that's that when you think you've known them or there's some undeniable, that's not just lust, even though I'm sure we can notice people are, you know, good looking or whatever. That's a drawer, that's a past life or a connection you need to balance out. The second side of love is, is this person beautiful and amicable and brings me to peace and joy and centeredness and happiness and, and do they not bump with my shadows?
Meaning push them purposely, right? So if I'm insecure, they don't make me feel more insecure or threaten to abandon me or whatever your issue is. So there's these two parts, [00:16:00] right? So I think a perfect relationship has both. You've got this draw, there's an evolutionary path, but they're so amicable and peaceful and joyful that life together is easy.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Now, if you have one or the other, if you just have the karmic draw, that's, that's destined for misery because no matter how much you try, if there's not peaceful, amicable, we can live well, it's easy, then you're going to go into a path and yes, you'll get your great evolutionary lessons, but who wants miserable life?
The other one is you can have a relationship that's beautiful and amicable and peaceful without that karmic draw, which feels less intense, but it's really divine. Now, if I had to pick either one, I mean, I've got both with my partner, I feel, but if I had to pick one, I'd go for the amicable. I know it's so much less exciting and so much less drawing, but my life is going to be really beautiful and supported and peaceful.
I would rather live with an amicable, beautiful best friend and a companion that loves me and that I love them. Bye. Then have this gritty drama as thing that's going to put [00:17:00] me out of flow. Now, if you get both, that's the gold.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Wow. Because
Speaker 2: I'm karmically balanced, but I also have this peace with them.
And we know we're here together and we know we can give each other peace and joy and friendship and easy living, but I also know I'm going to have to do some karmic work, but that's fantastic for my soul because I get to play out this life in peace and harmony with the learning as opposed to this gritty.
And I've got friends that have the gritty and oh God, their life is hell.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker 2: It's always a problem. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. I'm sure we've all got friends with, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't want it.
Speaker: No. I wouldn't
Speaker 2: want it because it's not peaceful for me.
Speaker: Yeah. I have a beautiful friend. She is stunning. She is gorgeous on the inside.
And we literally had this conversation recently where she said to me, I just feel so drawn to the ones that have the drama and I'm like, no, stop, stop, abort, abort. Stop.
Speaker 2: And maybe that's a drama entity that is playing out with her.
[00:18:00] And maybe that's her karmic lesson around why does love have to be linked to drama? And maybe in the past, that's how love was linked in her life, or maybe the past life, or maybe that's what she's learned and known. Cause that can start in this life or a past life where you link love to drama. And so you, you.
The energy and vibration of love is with drama as results, and therefore it's addictive. So she's got to unlink love and drama, and because she's just even called it out herself. That's different slightly to evolutionary lessons where a karmic love affair needs to be completed. Trauma doesn't like to be incomplete.
It will try and resolve itself until you fix it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Which is why it goes through family lines as well. But yes, it doesn't like to be unresolved. So she's actually got to do some work with unlinking drama and love, but also the partners she's had, she has had, maybe they have been karmic ones where she's had to clean up mess.
Speaker: Yeah. And so is that what you mean when you talk about karmic ties, it's things. Carried on from different Carried on from past incarnations
Speaker 2: or [00:19:00] past, yeah. And they do sometimes like to be balanced. So in a past life, if if, for example, someone has betrayed someone, sometimes they've got to come back into this life and feel that lesson.
So whenever you get betrayed or hardly done by, some of the things I ask is, well, maybe that's a calming balance. And it's not to say I forgive that person or I let that go. Right. In fact, I don't even like the word forgiveness because if I have to forgive you as my ex, that means I am playing judge, jury, executioner.
Oh, I'll forgive you lowly servant. It's like, actually, no, I like let them off the hook.
Speaker 3: Meaning I don't
Speaker 2: want to be courted to you anymore. I don't want this drama between us. I'm going to let you off the hook. You don't owe me anything. In fact, you've already given me what I needed, the catalyst and the lesson.
Speaker 3: So
Speaker 2: thank you. And in fact, I've worked with people that can't let go until they get the lesson. So you need to get the lesson. What did they gift me? What did I need? Thank you. I mean, yours was clear. I haven't put myself first. I've molded myself around others. I wasn't clear on who I was. I didn't trust myself.[00:20:00]
They're all the things that come up in mostly in loved ones. Thank you for your lesson. I now let you off the hook, meaning you don't owe me anything. I don't owe you anything. I come as done. Thank you for the lesson. I'm going to now evolve to a better version of myself, which means I'm going to meet a better vibrational match for the future.
But if you don't clear it, guess what the universe is like. She called her with a feather on the first one. I threw a little pebble to remind her she wasn't trusting herself. Now I'm going to throw a brick in her window.
Speaker: Yeah, legit. Yeah. Wake up Holly. And it really
Speaker 2: is that and some people do get it in love and some people get it in other areas like health scares or, but if someone's got it in love, that's, that's a tough one because it's.
You know, we're very emotional as humans, right?
Speaker: We are.
Speaker 2: Let's
Speaker: face it. Do you think that if it is a karmic. Tie a comic thing, like lesson that needs to be learned that that doesn't always mean that, that they are meant to stay together is, is some of [00:21:00] it just for a season of life, just for a
Speaker 2: season, just for a taste, just for a glimpse.
I totally think that in fact, I've, I've actually met since I've been married. I know that I've met past karmic lovers and I've recognized them for what they are. I'm like, you are not suited to me in this lifetime, but I can see the draw there and nah, that's not going to happen.
And I'm not many, but that does happen.
And some just come in for very brief sporadic time to show you something.
Speaker: Yeah, because I think that's something that I definitely struggled with in my last relationship. I started to realize it was that there was some sort of karmic work that, you know, towards the end, I realized me common denominator, what is it that I'm meant to be learning from this?
But I took that as it means that we're meant to be together forever. Like, yeah, and, and I guess I, that's something that I. I mean, obviously it would be awesome to stay together forever. Like, yeah. And I think that that would be, I'd love to get your point of view on that actually. Like at what point do you realize with a relationship that [00:22:00] it is a season and you've gleaned the lessons, but there's nothing left in it or no, you're actually meant to stay because it's for your growth.
Like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I think that you stay with someone cause you have a shared vision. If you don't have a shared vision and there's nothing left to evolve and grow with, I don't think there's a lot left to be learned or had. And I'm not a big fan of staying together forever for no reason. I, I think people, I think that you can tell, right?
It comes in, it's dramatic, it runs its course, and then it just drops off dead. Or you're looking ahead and it's stagnant and there's nothing there, and there's no growth, and there's no shared vision. I think they're time to kill them. Like, I really do. I'm not afraid of deathing things. I think it's time to death things.
Like, I hope I stay with my partner forever. He's a beautiful man. But if they came to a point where there was a drop off and stagnation and no, no future or shared vision, why would I stay just to stagnate as a spirit? I'm not, I'm not needing to have anyone here in this lifetime to be a strong, powerful spirit.
I don't believe in the idea of twin flames and those ridiculous. There's a lot of new age bullshit about twin [00:23:00] flames. There's only one that matches you and they complete you. No one completes me. Go fuck yourself. No one completes me. I am incomplete within myself. I have the masculine and the feminine within me and they come together as a, as my own union.
And if I have a partner that I have a good, I mean, I believe my partner and I have karmic ties, if we have a vision and a mission here and it feels great, amazing. I think we can have lots of partners in this time, in this lifetime that suit us, and that can like really flow with us. And I think our job is to find the one, like I said, that has a beautiful karmic tie and is the best amicable friend to live with.
And when you find that, that's gold. But again, graphing onto it or grabbing onto it and like holding it in your grips is stagnating. That's why obsessive love is so stagnant. They, they paint that picture in a Hollywood obsession. They've even done it in books. I'm reading a book series at the moment where there's this obsessive love in this quest that they're on and it's, it's obsessive and it's like, Ooh, I don't want to be, you know, told a story that it has to be this [00:24:00] heartstopping obsessive love where everything in my life is disappearing and this one person is my only quest.
That is just, that's, that's like, I don't even know what that is. That's a weird obsession. And I think that a lot of us are fooled into thinking that's what it's got to be. Hence, we fall short, all of our partners fall short of the Hollywood weird obsession of everything being this way. Yeah, so therefore we feel constantly let down, which is why affairs happens.
Speaker: Yes, actually. Yeah. I'd love for you to go there. Why, what, what is it with affairs? What's your view on them?
Speaker 2: Affairs? I have had so many people talk to me about workplace affairs and and I used to think in my twenties, oh, lying, cheating, piece of crap. Like that was my, that was my thing. And I'm not saying that that's not the case.
I don't think most affairs happen because people are dishonest. cheating people. I really don't. That does happen, and I'm not saying that affairs aren't dishonest. They are, but the reason behind the dishonesty is not what people think. I don't think people have affairs because they sit around going, how can I get more thrills in [00:25:00] my life?
I think what happens is they're in a, Relationship that might be going through a stagnant patch, or maybe they've stayed too long. Like we talked about, it's run its course and they're feeling unseen. They're feeling like stuck in it. And then what they're doing is they're not being mature and honest and confronting shadow.
They're not going, wow, this is, I'm not happy here. Or they're not communicating that you're scared. So they just repress, they bring their energy back. They shut down a little bit and then they're like, see someone at the workplace or see someone there. And that gives, they. They get a little bit of attention and their little spark lights up in their heart.
And then they're like, Oh, I get more attention. And then it becomes very obsessive because of course it's hidden and it's secret. And it's like, and then the more they see that, then more they realize they're stagnant in their own life. And then in the end, there's this pull toward this excitement. And then, as I said, the affair happens and then, then there's secrecy and then it started under lies.
So then it does become dishonest. I don't think people generally set out to have [00:26:00] dishonest relationships. I've coached most of them and they tell me how, how absolutely torn apart they are, but how they can't get over it. Like control themselves. So my thought would be is it's about people that can't be honest and mature and they see that one thing their partner's missing and then they blow it up into an obsessive flight romanticized ideal.
And then it goes sideways.
Speaker: Yeah. Wow. I know someone close to me who had an affair in their relationship and I'd love to get your point of view on this. They actually ended up with the person they had an affair with. They're in a beautiful marriage today with that individual and have been together for a long, long time.
And their relationship, like, I highly respect. It's a beautiful relationship, but it was formed. from, you know, an affair. What, what are your thoughts on that? Can they tune in to health?
Speaker 2: Yes, it can. On the rare occasion, I've seen it happen occasionally. Yes. So if it turns, if it is a karmic thing and they do just find this person that's they're meant to be with and [00:27:00] they have messed it up at the beginning, like they've had the affair rather than just being honest and I'm leaving.
Then what they need to do is go back and enter their timeline and take that lies and deceit off their timeline. Cause if birth like that, that's the creation of their energy in their world. And eventually karma will have to come back and flip that, whether it's in this life or the next. So they should go back and address the, the starter point.
Like if you started a business under stress. You have to go back and address the birthplace of the business going, I'm citing it in a distress, and reset it to its values you want. Abundance, peace, hopefulness, light, fullness, light, lightness. So their relationship, they'd have to go back and reset the values.
They should actually draw it up like a contract and reset the values of their relationship under a better state. They'd have to go do that. And I'd almost, Do a new vows around in an agreement, if any two shall agree, and then break the ties of starting under lies because that will come back at them at some point.
With the, that, but that's like the 5%, like that's the 5 or [00:28:00] 10%. The others that start that way usually are a catalyst to throw them out of their current relationship. So what happens is people when they, their affair gets found out or they admit it or it crumbles, usually they either leave their partner and therefore that's the catalyst to leave.
So affairs to me are just really great ways of leaving relationships. They're catalysts to leave
Speaker 3: or.
Speaker 2: Even better if the two are mature enough, the one that had the affair and the partner that's betrayed, if they're mature enough to look at what happened and work through that and go, what was your shadow?
What was my shadow? What was your part? What was my part and grow together? Then it can actually bounce back to be beautiful. So this old version of me and my twenties go, you'd never stay if someone cheated. Actually. No, you have to go. Why? What was the shadow? What was the comic agreement? Do we want to work on it or is it dead?
Speaker: Yeah, that's a great point actually. Cause I was the same as you. I used to look at it as like. That's it. Someone cheats on you, like kick them to the curb. And maybe there are cases where that does, you know, it does need to happen depending on the individual, but I have also seen [00:29:00] another couple very close to me who he cheated on her many, many years ago and they're still together today and have the most beautiful relationship now.
They worked. They were
Speaker 2: mature enough to work through it and it needed to happen. And, and, you know, so whatever way it goes, it's still a lesson. If you leave, you win. If you stay, you win. As long as you work through it.
Speaker: Yeah. And
Speaker 2: don't work through what you lose.
Speaker: Yes. Oh, yeah. Great point. You mentioned twin flames before.
That's something that growing up in a religious setting, I'd never heard. It wasn't until I came out and went into more spiritual things. I was like, what's this? What's a twin flame? Can you just, you, you did. Yeah. So a twin flame
Speaker 2: is, yeah, I love this concept too. I heard it very early on in my spiritual career and I was like, yeah, I don't think I agree with that.
I did fall for it at one point. It was like, Oh, where do I find my twin flame? Twin flame! I think I was 28 at that time. So a twin flame in spiritual terms is someone that is the, the counter opposite of you that matches you perfectly. So it's, so I mean, obviously in our world of gender mix up, that's [00:30:00] becoming very strange, but in the old days, it was woman, man, or two, two people that felt like they were the, you know, the perfect match.
Beautiful two parts of the same coin. And the idea was we birth into this world and we find the other part of the coin and we match up and then life is happily ever after again, it's, it's spiritual world's version of a Hollywood fake romance, you know, it's, it's really fake. And so people actually are out there thinking that they need to meet their twin flame that they need to find this one that completes them.
And then they'll be hold and loved and healed. And, and that will, that will come together. And what I think it's not. Stupidly far off. What I think it is, is there are people that come in and create this beautiful relationship and union. Like I said, I mean, you can call it soulmate or whatever you want to call it, but there are several of those people in this, in this world that we've reincarnated into that could come together with you and create a beautiful union.
I feel like I have that. People can find that and have this beautiful union, but I don't think it's one person and it certainly doesn't complete you. So the myth is it doesn't need to complete you, [00:31:00] you're fine on your own, you have the masculine and feminine within yourself, and if you find these loving unions, and I think there's lots of them in his lifetime that you could find but if you find one that you love, stay.
If you find one that feels good but doesn't quite work out, don't worry, another one will come down the river literally and you will find another union that feels good for you. Cause I do think that we are meant to be in some sort of union. We're hardwired as humans, whether that's right or not. I think we are hardwired to be in the loving union.
I think it feels good. And if it feels good, stay. If it doesn't, you go.
Speaker: Yeah, that's such a way more balanced way of looking at it rather than you're some soul that's endlessly looking for this only one person in billions. That's your person.
Speaker 2: You can imagine, you can imagine me like going, I'm like 40 years old and I'm, I'm in Tata's and I'm walking up that mountain in Nepal.
It's my twin slave now. Where is he? What country is he in or her or whatever you, whatever you're into. But you know, and that's just, So ridiculous.
Speaker: [00:32:00] Yeah, it really
Speaker 2: is. It really is. That's why with spirituality and anything in this, this whole world, it's so important to make sure that you are here, you're living here, you're grounded.
We are in a human body. Like I've had some of my colleagues go, Oh, I'm trying to communicate with the, you know, blue beings on the 20th dimension. I'm like, why don't you try talking to your dog first? Like just have a conversation with a tree or a dog, like seriously, like. That's kind of weird. I mean, what, what would that blue being tell you up there?
And are they interference? And are they an evil God trying to get your worship? You know, so, so I think we're a little bit out of control sometimes with our spiritual.
Speaker: God, I love you, Debbie. Just say it as it is, you're really going to love
Speaker 2: it. People can go wild with it. And I think it's actually a little bit I think some people use it as a little bit of a way to bypass living real life.
I think it can be a real way of sort of not really growing up and staying arrested in your development.
Speaker: That's so [00:33:00] true. So true. And something you mentioned before was in regards to family. So obviously we've been talking a lot about intimate relationships. Families can be very challenging dynamics.
Talk to me
Speaker 2: about that. Yes. Oh, I've got a lot of thought on family. I mean, my family have good and bad and mixed and mixed bag of lollies, but I believe families are our shadows. So we all have lessons and shadows to learn and to evolve. And I think we're born into a constellation, a family of shadows where we are literally thrown together in a close living quarter with all kinds of dysfunctional parenting going on and, and relationship modeling.
I mean, that's just wild. Isn't it?
Speaker 3: Uh,
Speaker 2: it's just you know, we, we. We learn and evolve from the difficult times that we have as kids with our siblings and our parents and, and extended family. And sometimes they're really hardcore lessons like abuse. And sometimes they're just, you know, really, really difficult sibling relationships.
And I think all [00:34:00] of our family are shadows. Now, what happens is as you get older, some of those family members, you go, Oh, I get the shadows, but I've really learned from them. I've still got a good tie and a good tether and I'll stay bonded and friendly with my older family members. And some you just go, I'm, I'm done with you.
I'm cooked because you're too troublesome. And I think this whole blood's thicker than water is bullshit. I just don't believe that.
Speaker 3: Yeah. My
Speaker 2: family and my tribe are who I say they are and all of them are my blood family. So out of my blood family, my mother and my middle sister and my grandmother are totally my beautiful ongoing family.
They've all got shadows of their own. But my father who's passed away now and my older sister, they're just too shadowy and they're too mentally messed up. And to stay in relationship with those people that are arrested and can't sort out themselves to the point and detriment to others, they have no place at my table.
Speaker 3: And it's
Speaker 2: not cold. It's just me going, who do I want to hang out with? and are they good enough? And [00:35:00] some of them aren't. And so I think families are your biggest shadow. So if you, if you want the Hollywood fake version of family to, to be what you aspire to, sorry, that's just so bullshit. It's so bullshit.
Speaker: Yeah. It's really not rooted in reality at all. It's
Speaker 2: not rooted in reality. It's
Speaker: not helpful.
Speaker 2: No, it's not. It's not. And, and people talk about this concept of unconditional love. Like they talk about whether it's partners or family or, I just don't agree with that either. We need boundaries. I, I can't have you hit me and still be okay with loving you or I can't have you betray me with affairs all the time and still be okay.
So unconditional love, it doesn't exist
Speaker 3: because
Speaker 2: there's conditions and there should be, because if you don't have conditions on love, then you're going to be whipped around by the universe. So we have conditions on love all the time. I have a condition on my partner that he's an alcoholic. I have a condition on my partner that, you know, he doesn't hurt our animals.
Speaker 3: I
Speaker 2: have a condition on my partner that he doesn't tease me about [00:36:00] being overweight. You know, like, like there's conditions, right? And so I've got them and I'm going to hold them. And if they get broken, I'm going to have a problem with it. So unconditional love and accepting people for who they are without any conditions.
I think that's abusive.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Really abusive,
Speaker: actually. Yeah. And so how do we, how do we face the shadows? What, what does that even, what does that even look like?
Speaker 2: Good question. We look at what they're triggering in us and why we still have it and we know they're sold when we're neutral. So if, if so, if someone's, so if my I don't know, my mother is triggering me around her money issues, I know I've still got money issues.
If my mother is triggering me around her bad relationships with people, then it's triggering me around mine. So you know when you've got shadows because they're triggering you because there's something in you that knows you've got that quality or lack of and they're, they're, they're hitting a little bit.
Buzz in you. And there's a Buddhist term I love called [00:37:00] Shenpa, which means sizzle. It creates a little sizzle in me. So if I've got an issue with a family member, there's something in me that's out of sorts and I've got to work on resolving it. Now that doesn't mean I have to stay in relationship to them.
So, I might say, well, I need to get to the point where I'm not triggered, but if they've got a quality like they're abusive, then why should I sit at the table and be abused the whole night just because I want to prove that I'm not triggered?
Speaker: Yeah, got you. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So, so you've got decisions to make.
You've got to work on yourself enough so that they don't trigger you anymore. And that means you have to reflect deeply in what is it about their behavior that you see in yourself that you hate them?
Speaker 3: Because if you didn't,
Speaker 2: you wouldn't be triggered. Because when I see people that have issues around drinking and drugs, I have no trigger on that because I don't have those problems.
But if I see someone that has a trigger around money, that has been a problem for me in the past that can trigger me. So, I know when I've still got shadows because someone's pushing my buttons and creating that little [00:38:00] schemper. And so I have to deep within search and look and go, how do I get to the point where I'm at point zero with it?
And work on that. And then when I can show up again and not be triggered, I know I've solved it. Then I still have a decision to make and I still have to decide, oh, do I want to still hang out with Uncle Bob or is Uncle Bob a jerk?
Speaker: That's a
Speaker 2: different decision to Uncle Bob triggers me.
Speaker: Yeah. Great point. I love that.
That Shempa sizzle. That is what it feels like too. It's like a
Speaker 2: sizzle. So I have a strategy for that. I, cause one of my clients, her mother in law really sizzled the crap out of her. She'd go over and she'd just be triggered and then with Sally. So I'd say to Sally I mentioned you going over to the house for dinner, are you mother in laws?
And she's in the kitchen with you and you're getting like wound up because she's asking you something you don't like or whatever it was. And I'd say, say silently in your head to yourself. Is it interesting how my mother in, or whatever name was, is making me feel really annoyed right now. So she'd say this in her head so her mother in law would be yapping at her and she'd be, [00:39:00] isn't it interesting, and she'd be talking to herself and all of a sudden it takes you out of being in it to on it.
So, So she's like, well, who's the one observing Sally? So then she would be stepping up outside of her day to day mind getting triggered going, oh yeah, I'm being triggered by this woman. Isn't it interesting that this anger coming out, where's that coming from? And it takes all the bite out of it because you're suddenly aware that you're on it, not in it.
And then you're watching this like pantomime play out between the two of you, but you're sort of up here observing. And then as soon as you're in that observer role, that trigger dies down because you're you're amused at it and you're watching it.
Speaker: That's so helpful. So
Speaker 2: helpful. So you next time you're in an argument with someone sort of retreat back into your mind and talk to yourself in the third person.
Isn't it interesting that Holly's feeling really annoyed by her brother right now? And then you just start to kind of back off their attention and the sizzle that's being created and then you can start to look into it. What is it about my mother in law that's really bugging me? And then once Sally worked [00:40:00] it out, she stopped being triggered by it.
Speaker: Wow. And so do you think that then whatever, like you said before, whatever is bringing up that sizzle, it's something resolved within?
Speaker 2: Something unresolved. It has to be, otherwise it wouldn't trigger you. Always unresolved in you. So the problem isn't the person, the problem is where they're not where you want them to be.
So you want them to, you know, it's like saying, I want them to be a glass, but they're really a post it note. I want them to be a glass, but they're a post it, like it's, you're the problem. You want them to be something they're not because of something unresolved in you. As soon as you resolve that, you don't need them to be anything that they're not.
Speaker: Yeah. Powerful stuff, Debbie.
Speaker 2: Powerful. Yeah.
Speaker: It's funny because one of the big triggers that used to come up for me that was reflected back to me, both relationships, and then I was like, wow, I really need to pay attention to this was I couldn't handle like my, my previous partners. Thinking different to me on big topics.
Couldn't handle it. Like it just, it would [00:41:00] make me so unnerved within myself of like, how can you see the world so different to me? How can you not see it the way I see it? Like, it's so clear to me. Why is it not clear to you?
Speaker 2: Was the trigger that you felt like you could be wronged or that you weren't trusted or believed or what was the trigger that that?
Speaker: Both. I actually think it's both. Yeah, I didn't like being, I didn't want, I couldn't handle being wrong. I had to be right, which is a horrible way to move through life. Like that's a terrible way to move through life. I think part of that stemmed from having to be right in my very strict religious upbringing.
Like we had to be right because we had to save the world. And I don't mean that disrespectfully, but like, that was how I was trained to be.
Speaker 2: And the police, right? Oh, and the police. Yeah. It was a police incident. I mean, you get infringements and fines if you're bad. I mean, it's all about right and wrong, isn't it?
Yeah.
Speaker: So I struggled with that big time and that was reflected back to me. And that was one where I had to really do some work on of like, hang on. You're not right. It's not always about being right. [00:42:00] And people can see the world different to you. And there's so many different ways. Yeah. It was just interesting.
I was like, I'm listening, I'm paying attention.
I need to sort this out. Like, yeah. Yeah. And they were sizzles. That's what it felt like. And
Speaker 2: when you know, it's sizzling within you. You know it's yours. You're the only one responsible for it. Well, people don't, but they shit in their need to know that it's theirs. They're the only one responsible for it.
And so when you realize that the inner world, your private world is the only true place where you need to be at peace with anything, anything can go on on the outside world and you can be okay with.
Speaker 3: I'm not
Speaker 2: saying you like it or want it, or you don't want it changed, but you have to be okay with it no matter what.
And that's the problem with love. People need love to be or their partners to be a certain way. To be happy. Therein lies the problem.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So you have to kind of almost make, it's a bit practical, you almost have to make a bit of an inventory. What's a deal breaker and what's okay? What's it, what are your deal breakers?
Because you need to know when you go into a [00:43:00] relationship what your deal breakers are.
Speaker 3: Because deal
Speaker 2: breakers aren't necessarily your unresolved shadows. They're ways that you want to be treated in a relationship that are really important to you.
Speaker: And then
Speaker 2: you need to go, anything else that's shadowy and sizzling is my issue to resolve.
Speaker: Yeah. Do you recommend taking time out before getting into another, like, if a relationship's ended? Oh,
Speaker 2: 100%. 100%. I think between relationships, you should cut the karmic ties. You should cut vows and agreements. I mean, you've got to. Had a bit of a taste of that.
Speaker 3: We need to
Speaker 2: actually do some reflection. What did I learn?
What are my lessons? You should have a burn ceremony, like a spiritual burn ceremony, cutting of the agreements and a letting go. And most of all, letting someone off the hook. Cause if you still think that there's an outstanding apology or grievance or something that they should have done differently, you remain hooked into them energetically.
You do. And in fact, I had a client of mine. You'll love this story. She was 10 years into her marriage, had a couple of kids, [00:44:00] but she'd been engaged in her 20s to this guy she was very, like, infatuated with, and he just disappeared and left out of the blue. And and she never heard from him. She didn't know if he was dead, or she was kind of maybe caught up in something, he just disappeared.
Anyway, she'd been dreaming about this man for years. She's in her nightmares. I'm like, does your husband know? She goes, no, I'd never tell him. She's dreaming. And then she contacts me for a session and she says, I've been dreaming about this guy. I can't let him go. Like, I just, I just want to be done with it.
I'm like 10 years into my new partnership. I've got children. It's just, it's haunting me. Anyway, so we did this session and I said to her at the end, I said, you know, He got in trouble with some sort of drug ring or something. He's gone back to his home country. He didn't want to leave you, but he also just couldn't stay here.
And he's never forgotten about you, but you need to, I've cut the ties. You need to, you know, you need to let him go. You need to cut the karmic ties because you still haven't resolved why he left. And. Even if you never knew, you have to be okay with that because [00:45:00] you've decided to let go. So I said, you know, can we together do this agreement that you're going to cut it?
And we did. And she's never had a dream about him ever since.
Speaker: That's crazy. He ended
Speaker 2: up tracking him down. He was living back in New Zealand and it was, it was he did hide out for a number of years through drug related activities. So, but, but she didn't stop. cut the ties, do anything to let go. And even when she was dreaming about him, she was still just putting up with it.
And I'm like, that is not normal.
Speaker 3: That is
Speaker 2: not just a standard. I can't let him go. That is, you've got a, like a tie there through time and space. And you've allowed yourself to create a thick cord where you're being messed up in your dreams by this
Speaker: person. I don't
Speaker 2: think people understand the energetic entanglement they get into.
Speaker: I certainly didn't. And it was through doing a course of yours. My gosh, is it how to move on? Yeah. How to
Speaker 2: move on from your ex just because so many people need it, right?
Speaker: Yeah. And I, like, I had already been working on myself, like of, of being like, okay, what, what, what have I done? Where, where am I contributing [00:46:00] to this?
Where, what are my shadows? Like been doing all that and then doing that course through you. I didn't expect to have such a release energetically, the cord cutting when we did the cord cutting part. Oh my gosh, that was like such an emotional thing for me that I did not expect it to be quite like that.
And it's actually bringing it up for me now, like in a beautiful way of seeing, you know, my ex partner and, and releasing that cord. It's, it's actually. incredible the impact it can have. It is
Speaker 2: incredible and it can be from you to them or them to you or both. So it can be you hanging on to them there for the quarter.
It can be them projecting at you. When you feel something in your back, it's normally someone projecting into you because your back's your subconscious. So when some people are courting into you or you to them, but how amazing does it feel when it's released? And they also feel it. So if you cut cords to a partner, they might not know, but.
Somewhere deep down, they know that it's severed because it's like their life source is being cut off or they can't connect to you as easily. And [00:47:00] while ever the connections open, the danger is you could be soaking up their bad vibes and vice versa. Like it actually leaves that energy cord open. And I've seen so many of those.
Speaker: That makes a lot of sense actually, because the dynamic changed in a very good way after that. Yeah. Yeah. In a very healthy way. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. How can people work with you, Debbie? Because you're incredible at all
Speaker 2: of this. I think a couple of ways, if you want to do something specifically around love, you can certainly do that course.
But I think it's more around understanding energy. I think. You'd be mad not to learn how to understand energy, what goes on all the different ways that we operate on the energy world versus the physical. I think if you don't understand that, you're playing half a game. And when you realize it happens in the boardroom, it happens at work, it happens between friends.
When you realize what energy is and how to wield it, you become so much more I'm going to say abundant, but life just flows better for you because you [00:48:00] suddenly realize, Hey, I'm not feeling good today. I think someone's projected at me and they, and they can project at you even unwillingly or unknowingly.
If someone's like thinking bad of you or angry at you for a breakup or sad, that's okay. They'll be projecting energy at you and it's invisible, a little bit like stress is there, but invisible or radio waves. We know that EMF can come through our field, right? We can't see it. It's the same thing. So my thought is, is that if you feel like you're conflicting with anyone, just have this little ritual of sending it back every day.
So yeah, I can feel you want to send it back or learn more about how to wield your energy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we have
Speaker 2: courses that you can train in it, but just learn how to wield your energy. Cause if you don't know how to wield it and you're playing this blind game.
Speaker: Yeah, that is what it can feel like too. It is just a blind game.
Speaker 2: Blind game. And if you come across someone that you have this karmic, exciting draw to, so if you're single and you're like,
Speaker 3: Oh,
Speaker 2: If you see them and you're like, Oh my God, just go, is that a good past life or a bad past life? What do I need to learn? And [00:49:00] then, and start to kind of figure it out and, and separate try and separate those feelings of, do I really like this person or is there some weird draw and, and if you want to play it out, play it out, but be aware that you're playing it out.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. Is there a question that you wish I would have asked you or anything that you want to add further to anything?
Speaker 2: No, but don't marry before 30.
Speaker: Oh, that would be amazing advice for me.
Speaker 2: Because you go through certain returns at 28 to 30. 30 and you completely changed. So don't marry four 30. If you're with someone and you happen to go through that Saturn, that's an astrological transit.
It's a long story, but maybe another, another podcast. But if you go through that together and you come out on the other side, then it truly is withstanding the, the mysteries of time. But generally, no, don't marry or be with someone long term before 28 to 30 if you can, because you just. rapidly evolving around that time and you become a [00:50:00] different person.
Speaker: Yeah that makes. So much since. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And most people I've asked have gone, when did your problem start? Or when did you split? And they're like, Oh, around 30 or 28. And I'm like, that, that age just happens all the time.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I was married. That's not the question everyone should ask.
Speaker 2: Oh,
Speaker: that, that was, with my mind, I literally got married and then was split.
Engage the second time before 30. So that I know, I know. Hence,
Speaker 2: hence that's just two, two before 30. You really like overachieve there, Holly. Yeah,
Speaker: such a douche bag, but I'm grateful for them. I don't mean that in a bad way. I'm actually like, that's another thing. Like, I used to look back with a lot of shame, a lot of shame of like, how can you be this age and have two big relationship breakups like that?
Like so much shame. And now I'm like, I'm so, so grateful, like genuinely grateful. And I've learned so much from them. And, and like, I see it as like, A gift, a massive gift, [00:51:00] both.
Speaker 2: It, it is. And you know what, if I was doing a life purpose session with you, I'd be like, wow, there's something around relationships that you're here to teach or do on a, on a blueprint level.
Cause my theory is that you're always here to do what your greatest challenge is.
Speaker 3: Now it doesn't
Speaker 2: have to be a direct relation, like, Oh, you know, I used, I've got abused as a kid now. I'm a social worker or I was an alcoholic. Now I recover alcoholics. It doesn't have to be that direct, but when you've had two big ones like that, so early on, plus your upbringing, there's something around that, that becomes your purpose around that intimacy and and you even said yourself, right, I'm just making a link here.
You said that you didn't know yourself properly or didn't trust yourself properly and you molded yourself around these two relationships. Wasn't that how you were brought together? Up as a kid with religion. Yeah. So, so there's something around your purpose if you flipped it to say I'm here to help people know who they are on a deep level, therefore they don't get trapped in someone else's game.
That would be the direct flip of your purpose. Don't want them trapped with a lover, [00:52:00] a business, a corporate job, a cult, anything where they're like trapped in someone else's reality. So you're about, James might have mentioned you, the dreamer, not the dreamt, like creating dodgy game. Because lovers. if you're having that addiction energy or that kind of karmic tie can be very consuming and you can be caught up in their game and you can lose yourself.
And I, that's just, just not cool.
Speaker: I'm going to book a session with you, Debbie. That was powerful. I actually feel my body getting very, very warm as you were talking then. That was crazy. Like, yeah, that felt like, and that is the premise behind this podcast as well, is, you know, let's look at everything.
Let's look at every topic, but come back to your own inner compass. Come back to your own truth. Come back to, you know, to ourselves. Don't put all of our direction in life onto external forces. Come back to yourself. That's the whole reason for the podcast. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm even getting the tagline, play your own game.
It's something about playing your own game.[00:53:00]
Speaker: You're incredible. I can't recommend you enough. Like, yeah, I said the same thing to James, the both of you, but like, yeah, you Debbie are incredible. People will feel that. Through you speaking and you're the real deal and the work that you're doing here on earth is just so powerful and the ripple effects like it doesn't just affect that individual it's everyone that that individual meets and and you know the whole yeah ripple effects across humanity is huge with the work that you're doing and i'm so grateful to you thank you for this conversation
Speaker 2: thank you so much holly lovely to chat to you as usual
THE SHOW
